upro - 03 March 2010 08:33 PM

Lobsan Payat - 26 September 2007 04:47 AM

“What others do and do not do is not my concern,” said the Buddha. “What I do and do not do - that is my concern.”

Namaste all.

A Chan abbot went dressed in rags to the door of a rich man and was turned away with an empty bowl. So he returned in his formal robe of office and was invited in and served a sumptuous meal. Removing his robe and folding it, he placed it on front of the feast and departed with the words, “This meal is not for me; it is for the robe.”

Why did he do this? This is something I don’t understand. Why did he want/need to correct the rich man? Did he do this to correct/impress/humiliate the rich man or to make hi feel ashamed? Or is this just a story to teach us not to look at clothes?

I mean, the rich man didn’t ask for being taught or corrected. The abbot went to see him just to tell him that he was wrong without being asked for.
That is what I don’t quite understand….

upro - 04 March 2010 09:47 PM

upro - 03 March 2010 08:33 PM

Lobsan Payat - 26 September 2007 04:47 AM

“What others do and do not do is not my concern,” said the Buddha. “What I do and do not do - that is my concern.”

Namaste all.

A Chan abbot went dressed in rags to the door of a rich man and was turned away with an empty bowl. So he returned in his formal robe of office and was invited in and served a sumptuous meal. Removing his robe and folding it, he placed it on front of the feast and departed with the words, “This meal is not for me; it is for the robe.”

Why did he do this? This is something I don’t understand. Why did he want/need to correct the rich man? Did he do this to correct/impress/humiliate the rich man or to make hi feel ashamed? Or is this just a story to teach us not to look at clothes?

I mean, the rich man didn’t ask for being taught or corrected. The abbot went to see him just to tell him that he was wrong without being asked for.
That is what I don’t quite understand….

hi, upro

some clarification on this story will help you.

it is often attributed to the 14th century zen master ikkyu, but the original comes from kasmir in around the first century bce. over the last two thousand years i’m sure several dozen other masters have been accredited with this story.

but the beginning of the story was left out by lobsan payat.

the great master was first invited to a grand banquet by wealthy patrons. having arrived in his broken and dirty robes the wealthy host was unable to place him and drove him out. he then returned later in his grand ceremonial purple brocade robes and was invited in.

some versions say he was usually dressed nicely, but when he can all dirty the host didn’t recognize the beggar and drove him off as he was waiting for a very well respected master to arrive for the feast and couldnt have the dirty beggar hanging around eating scraps.

so when he finally returned all cleaned up in his silken robes, the host warmly received him and catered to his every need, serving him only the finest of their preparations with much excitement.

now, some versions say he folded up his robe and left it there to enjoy the meal, while other versions say he shocked the host by actually smearing all the food and tea all over his fabulous robes like a madman. the host then asked him what the problem was, and he replied; “you never really wanted to feed me. i just arrived here an hour ago and you drove me away. so, i think what you really wanted was to feed these robes!”

so the wealthy host was shocked because he didnt recognize the master when he arrived the first time looking like a beggar. then he was caught trying to impress the master and serve him well while forgetting the poor.

upro - 03 March 2010 10:34 PM

Thank you very much!
Excuse me please if I ask it again, just to assure that I get it really right: The way of the master is to approach everyone who deos something which is not good and to correct him? If the master walks on the street and sees soeone doing something bad he goes to see him and tells him that he did something bad?

Sorry for asking again and again, I would like to understand this entirely!

this is a very delicate situation. only a true master can skillfully teach those who are not seeking to be taught.

if a deluded person thinks they have the right way and must go and tell others they are wrong, then that person is also in the wrong. they are attached to fault finding and self-exaltation. even though to them it may seem they are helping, this is not truly helping others.

but one with a clear mind who is not attached to self and other, right or wrong, can truly help all beings in any situation. by clearly perceiving the other party’s action and motives, such a master can use very skillful means to instruct without offending and without raising themselves.

thats perhaps why master yanzhuo said this is the way of the masters, the way it must be done, but it is also the most difficult thing in the world.

it can often be done incorrectly.

hence we have a phrase; “blind leading the blind”.

we must be careful not to do that. one must first have clear seeing, not attached to appearances, reward, or harsh treatment in return. so very hard to do when we make distinctions of self and other!

LFJ - 08 March 2010 08:14 AM

upro - 03 March 2010 10:34 PM

Thank you very much!
Excuse me please if I ask it again, just to assure that I get it really right: The way of the master is to approach everyone who deos something which is not good and to correct him? If the master walks on the street and sees soeone doing something bad he goes to see him and tells him that he did something bad?

Sorry for asking again and again, I would like to understand this entirely!

this is a very delicate situation. only a true master can skillfully teach those who are not seeking to be taught.

if a deluded person thinks they have the right way and must go and tell others they are wrong, then that person is also in the wrong. they are attached to fault finding and self-exaltation. even though to them it may seem they are helping, this is not truly helping others.

but one with a clear mind who is not attached to self and other, right or wrong, can truly help all beings in any situation. by clearly perceiving the other party’s action and motives, such a master can use very skillful means to instruct without offending and without raising themselves.

thats perhaps why master yanzhuo said this is the way of the masters, the way it must be done, but it is also the most difficult thing in the world.

it can often be done incorrectly.

hence we have a phrase; “blind leading the blind”.

we must be careful not to do that. one must first have clear seeing, not attached to appearances, reward, or harsh treatment in return. so very hard to do when we make distinctions of self and other!

Thank you! That clarifies a lot, and comforts me. So he was not putting on the bad robe on purpose to test the rich man, nor did he deliberately wait for an error to correct it.

To be a good person is hard, is to be wise achievable?

Thank you again!

clear mirror wisdom is our deepest nature. it’s always functioning, always reflecting the truth of the moment clearly.. but we dont pay attention to that and follow our conceptual thinking instead.

many chan masters have deliberately tested another, but it is not with the mind of ordinary folks who want to test others in order to show how much they know and feel special and wise or poke their nose in others’ business. their testing is skillfully done out of compassion and wisdom, so it is not offensive and also not self-exalting.

of course it is not advisable to ordinary folks who are just as trapped by their own conceptual mind. this way only makes trouble. so the buddha taught to his first disciples to only concern themselves with what they do and say, and not what others do and say. for a realized person however, they vow to help liberate all beings. they do not wait around for their asking, but create opportunities to help. this takes a lot of skill, and can only be pulled off by someone who is realized. so first, the buddhas advice is to concern yourself only with what you do and say.

What do people do after they’re enlightened?

The best way to answer this question is through a story. During WW2 in China, the revered Chan master, Ven Xuyun (seen above) held a Mass Prayer Ceremony for Peace in Chongqing city. The neighbouring city Chengdu’s Buddhist council recommended that Ven Changyuan & Upasaka Yuan Huanxian (a respected lay teacher) to travel to Chongqing & invite Ven Xuyun over to give a sermon. Ven Changyuan could not make it, so eventually only Mr Yuan went over to Chongqing. At that time, the official in charge of such Buddhist matters was Mr Dai Jitao. Yuan asked Dai to make the request for him, but he replied that Ven Xuyun maybe too old to travel long distances. At this, Yuan, who was known for his sharp wisdom, remarked:

“Whether the Ven comes or not is up to him; whether or not I invite him or not is up to me. Since he has opened a shop, I have the freedom to go buy something from it. If the price is right, I’ll pay; otherwise we’ll each go our own ways.”

So Yuan got to speak to Ven Xuyuan directly. He made the necessary salutation and asked:

“There are 3 kinds of people in Chengdu that needed to be saved. The 1st kind thinks that one needs to continue cultivating after enlightenment. The 2nd kind thinks that once you are enlightened, that’s it. The 3rd kind thinks that to cultivate is not to cultivate, not to cultivate is to cultivate. Will the Ven master please enlighten them with your teachings?”

Ven Xuyun replied with a Chinese saying:

“All the crows in the world are black!”

But there was no further explanation of this as they both started to talk about other topics. Later Yuan wrote a letter to his friend Mr Jia Titao relating the incident. Ven Dayu, another Chan master with great insights from Hubei province was also there with Jia. He had this comment to make after learning what happened:

“Upasaka Yuan asked a very good question & Ven Xuyun gave a good answer. But as a leading master of his time, this answer is not as sharp as we would expect of him. If I were him, I would ask Yuan, which of the 3 kinds of people did HE belong to? Only in that way will they collide into each other on a narrow path & forced to present their naked minds!”

That ends my story. But what’s the moral of the story? What do enlightened people do after enlightenment?

I can provide you with the answer but that wouldn’t be fun. Instead I’m going to ask:

Which of the 3 kinds of people do YOU belong to? Yup, contemplate on that!

All from:  waynedammablog (blogspot)

Amituofo

so in the story accorded by the buddha, whose bowl was required to be upturned and whose nirvana due to criticize? the offer was made by who here and is there refuge in just looking without having to throw up an amituofo on it? if they dont collide to the eye at the time,maybe by not ‘consciously’ asking, will parinirvana buddha still get them hooked up in parinirvana? is it ok if both, either or neither asked on this occasion of the story if there was a monk and a man beyond or either side of the robe? is there really a monk in this story?

amitahaba

blooming tianshi lotus.